Mycroft

To get to the nub of this, to call anything I have tested so far as an 'Octane Booster' is stretching the term a bit, sure they will add maybe 0.6 of an Octane and therefore they are grammatically 'Octane Boosters', but as a route to deriving power from increased Octane is concerned, that is a joke.

They do have a way of changing the way the flamefront progresses, by using in one case Iso-paraffins, the only 'gain' that you obtain is that your ignition is not retarded and does not return to default minimum advance.

So car has factory spec power of 280hp, the ignition can moderate its output to suit a 'lower' grade of fuel and the car automatically resets the timing and now you get (say) 270hp, you then reset everything and add 'Octane Booster' the car starts at 281½hp (that 0.6oct 'boost' amounts to that) and the car does not retard the ignition 'cos it can't see the detonation.

You have not gained any real power!

Now when I add my bit of Toluene I get real power, the knock sensors don't retard 'cos there really is no pre-detonation, the higher Octane gives more power, real power, not just what I had 'originally'.

Times wise, they were the best times achieved in each guise, they were not on the same day, they are just 'Best Times With and Without Toluene'

Peter

Whoa, big swerve....

Mycroft

First post, no swerve!

Hugh Keir

Hallelujah,

Mycroft tapped away with

“Now when I add my bit of Toluene I get real power, the knock sensors don't retard 'cos there really is no pre-detonation”

Great I am sure we all agree.

And with

“ Octane gives more power, real power, not just what I had 'originally'.”

I am sure we can also agree that your technique has provided more advanced ignition settings and the high octane fuel can be used to your advantage to create more power.

Mycroft

It has been a long day, can you explain the above Hugh?

I am a little lost!

Hugh Keir

Mycroft,

The stumbling block for me in this thread has been the comments about fooling the knock sensor.

In you last post, you said "'cos there really is no pre-detonation” and that has been the reality for me all along, not that you have fooled the sensor, but that you actually achieved the desirable result of having no pre-detonation.

My guess is that if you run toluene all the time, you would not need to short out the knock sensors either.

Mycroft

Forgive me I really am failing to make myself 'plain' here.

Only if you genuinely up the Octane rating will the pre-det. not occur.

All those products we have tested DO NOT increase the Octane rating in any significant way.

The only way to stop the ignition being 'retarded' (which is how most cars running 'ordinary' fuel run most of the time) is to prevent the Knock sensor from detecting the knock, additives do this by changing the 'characteristics' of the knock, my colleague has even proposed that the added lubricant cushions the sound and tries to fool the sensor this way also.

When running 'optimax' I can short out the sensors if I wish, I did the short originally to test whether or not the sensors worked as I had guessed they should.

I may have found a source for a Digital knock sensor, this will not be fooled by the 'Octane Boosters' and I am making enquiries, we will buy a dozen or so and will happily fit one to a Skyline that at present or in the future is or will be running one of these 'boosters'.

Digital detectors will be able to pick-up knock right thru to 8k+.

Hugh Keir

Mycroft,

So, I take it you disagree with my earlier statement " detonation is spontaneous combustion of the fuel generated by temperatures or pressures in the combustion chamber that are excessive. It is the sound waves from the multiple flame fronts colliding that create the sound we call detonation" ?

Please give us your definition of knock.

I am happy to agree that you have increased the Octane rating of your fuel with toluene.

You also need to be aware that a large percentage of Skylines in the UK are fitted with programmable ECU's and can approach this problem directly by adjusting the maps.

Mycroft

#It is the sound waves from the multiple flame fronts colliding that create the sound we call detonation#

Wrong I'm afraid.

It is simply a pressure spike at around 6400hz. The sensor is tuned to this frequency and this frequncy only.

Knock Detonation; is the spontaneous combustion of the 'end-gas' in the chamber. It occurs after normal combustion has been initiated by the spark plug. Due to heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts.

'Pre-detonation'; is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is more correctly called pre-ignition.

The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon only by detecting the former can you hope to prevent the latter as it cannot easily be detected until it has done some damage.

Whilst I'm on this 'definition thing', a word about Octane, it is simply a way to express anti-knock level it relates perfectly to the speed of the flamefront, the higher the rating the further the timing can be advanced and there fore the 'perfect' strike point can be achieved with the flame at its fastest at 14deg ATDC.

Peter

How does a 4% increase in power translate into nearly a second off your 1/4 time?

What method did you employ to measure the octane ratings?

Steve,

Have you got any information from NF about the constituent parts of NF and how these boost octane levels and reduce/mask det.? What does the '6 ron' on the NF bottle actually mean?

Peter.

Ian SuttoN1

Peter im doing the NF bulk order next week I take it you don't want any?

...Ian

Peter

Hi Ian,

Have you used up all the last lot or have you become a supplier now?

I don't know what to think to be honest. I keep getting a whooshing noise which I thought was my dump valves or something, turns out to be some of these posts flying straight over my head! It would be nice to get a definitive answer but that's probably wishful thinking.

Peter.

Ian SuttoN1

True Peter I await the results on what OB is the best and why.

Until then and mainly for a safety point of view I will still add NF (3rd of a bottle 100ml) per tank of shell Optimax. I hear you lose up to 3 ron on SUL if it stands in the tank also if it has been at the petrol station for some time (could be myth) on the basis I use my car only at w/e's it makes sense to me.

Regarding supply, no i'm not a dealer its just that I have a contact and it arrivres sharpish in bulk! £10 a bottle still.

let me know ..Ian

PS I'm at DONNO Sunday for the SIDC day!!

Peter

I've still got 4 bottles here so I pass this time thanks.

Have a great time on Sunday, is this the first time on track with the new engine?